by Gordon Nary
Gordon: Why did you decide to be a Paulist?
Father. Dick: I guess first I decided that I wanted to be a priest, originally for the diocese of Ft. Wayne, IN. Then, while in college, I discerned that I didn't want to be a parish priest all my life. I used to phrase it, "I just can't imagine posing for my 40th First Communion picture with the kids." A counselor steered me to the Paulists. I had mentioned things like campus ministry, media work, reaching beyond Catholic boundaries, and he said, "That's the Paulists. Their vocation director visits here about twice a year. I'll put you in touch." We use the term "discernment" for this process, but another way of saying that is that "The Paulists felt like a very good fit for me."
Gordon: When you felt or discerned your vocation, with whom did you first discuss it, and what was their advice?
Father Dick: Along the way there were a number of priests whom I thought seemed to be happy and effective priests. So it was with them that I had my most heartfelt discussions. It was Fr. Jim Demuth, while I was in Junior High, Fr. Len Chrobot while I was in high school, and a number of priests at St. Meinrad, where I went to College. I always found them to be candid, down to earth, encouraging, but realistic in their advice. "Take a look." "Try it on." "See how priesthood feels or fits.”
Gordon: Where did you attend college, what degrees did you earn, who was your favorite teacher, and why was that teacher your favorite?
Father Dick: Providentially, I think, I went to St. Meinrad Seminary-College, run by the Benedictines. It's located in rural southern Indiana, about halfway between Louisville, KY and Evansville, IN. While it was a seminary "for young men thinking about the possibility of a priestly vocation," it was also a liberal arts college with a variety of majors. The mentoring style and discipline mirrored Vatican II more than the traditional seminary model. Those were probably the happiest, most eye-opening years of my life. While there I made some of my closest lifelong friends. I majored in History, focusing on American History. I also took the required amount of Philosophy and Latin to be prepared for graduate seminary studies.
The Benedictines were for me an ideal blend of religious men rooted in the Catholic tradition, especially a love for liturgy. But they also seemed more "with it" than I had anticipated, more attuned to Vatican II, contemporary theology, and Church dialoguing with the modern world. Their balance helped me to appreciate the Catholic tradition, but to envision it in the 20th century looking forward. I guess that’s what led me toward the Paulists too.
Favorite teacher? Among the monks there were a number of men, of a variety of ages and temperaments, whom I can say mentored me. Fr. Daniel Buechlein, later archbishop of Indianapolis, was my spiritual director and the one who recommended the Paulists. I am forever grateful for the wit and wisdom of Frs. Blaise Hettich, Hilary Ottensmeyer, Thomas Ostdick, Damian Schmeltz and Gregory Chamberlain. But it is probably Fr. Meinrad Brune, still alive at 90, with whom I have remained closest. Yes, he taught me American History, but more than that he has grown along with me across the decades, learning himself, as I have learned, to age more or less gracefully.
Gordon: Where did you attend seminary. what was your favorite course, and why was that course your favorite?
Father Dick: After St. Meinrad I joined the Paulists for a novitiate year in Oak Ridge, NJ. There were 26 of us novices, about 10-15 more than a usual Paulist novitiate at that time. We were described as being like "soup to nuts" or "a dog from every town." Our novice director, Fr. Vinny McKiernan, like the monks at St. Meinrad, was a priest of his times, neither stodgy nor too flamboyant. In addition to contemplation and prayer on our rural novitiate property we also did apostolates two days a week at nearby hospitals, homes for the disabled, etc. It was a good balance of ministry w/prayer time.
Somewhat bowled over by the breadth of my novitiate classmates, I took a year off after that and taught high school at my own alma mater, Bishop Dwenger High School in Ft. Wayne, IN. It was a good year for living single, learning how to teach, and clearing my own head.
When I returned to the Paulists I went to The Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., while living at our Paulist formation house just down the street. I was drawn to Ethics and Moral Theology more than to other theological subjects. Professors John Dedek and Charles Curran challenged me most. I found that studying Ethics (Moral Theology) dovetailed with my own personality traits and issues. Often their critiques of my writings in class paralleled what I was learning about myself in counseling and seminary formation.
Gordon: Tell us something about your parish.
Father Dick: At 74 I am no longer fulltime in a parish or campus ministry setting. I live in Vero Beach, FL with four other semi-retired Paulists. We help out ad hoc in nearby parishes, both in this diocese (Palm Beach) and I particularly work in Brevard County, the southern part of the nearby Orlando diocese. Most local pastors seem to welcome us as part-timers. We have no interest in taking over their parishes, telling them how to run them, or interfering in parish policy. Tell us what Masses, weddings, baptisms, funerals, confessions, anointings or RCIA work you want us to do, and we'll do it. We appreciate being able to help, plus it brings in some income to offset our living expenses together.
Gordon: As a moral theologian, what topics are you often asked to discuss?
Father Dick: I used to be on the Moral Theology circuit, giving workshops for clergy, teachers, catechists, hospital staffs, and parishes, far more than I am recently. As you might imagine, sexuality topics and healthcare ethics garner the most interest.
(1) Sexual issues? Homosexuality, sex outside marriage (especially for the single or widowed elderly), pedophilia and child abuse, transgender issues and the tragedy of sex trafficking and exploitation. Lots of discussion and interest in what it means to be a healthy sexual person or a sexually mature adult.
(2) Healthcare Issues? Notice it's not called Medical Ethics, since there are a lot of social
issues related to healthcare that are not so medically focused. End of life questions, proxy documents, living wills, and what used to be termed 'ordinary' vs. 'extraordinary' means – these come up most often for discussion. So too questions about birth control of all kinds, IVF and reproductive technologies, ‘plastic’ surgeries, insurance and the cost of healthcare, limited access to healthcare, healthcare for profit vs. not-for-profit, money for research verses the cost of curative care. The questions go on and on, while the answers are often more like input than definitive responses.
Gordon: What are the greatest challenges to healthcare ethics, and what can be done to address these challenges?
Father Dick: Probably the greatest underlying questions are ACCESSIBILITY to healthcare within a community, within a country, and across the globe as well as the COST or financing of healthcare for one and all. No, it can't simply be a personal responsibility. Often the costs are simply too high for most individuals to afford. At the same time, one's employer nor the government are "made of money." While they have some obligations to assist in paying the bills, especially for those most in need, the cost of healthcare cannot simply or easily be absorbed by the government. Managing costs, like programs to negotiate the prices of drugs and services, is a start. Cutting edge medicine is expensive. Discerning "how to" and "who to" pay the bills is a fundamental moral issues for our times. It's a social or "we" problem, not solely a question for individuals.
Gordon: Please explain the Principle of Double Effect.
Father Dick: In some ways the traditional "Principle of Double Effect," while well-intended, has sort of been absorbed and superseded. It's a rule of thumb that if a given action, especially a medical decision, has two effects, one to cure or help the patient's illness, while at the same time causing some loss or deficit (e.g., amputate a gangrenous limb to save one's life), we could do the action, morally intending the good result, not the bad side-effect. Hence, double effect: intend the good, not the bad. And the good is not caused by the bad. Where this fits, it is a helpful "rule of thumb."
But there are also some cases in which the two results happen simultaneously. Or sometimes one might say causing the harm is the direct reason that the good result will ensue. So, can we do something bad for the sake of some greater good? This one is messier than double effect. In some instances, ethicists say "yes," while in others they say, "no way," the evil is too great. Some say, "two wrongs never make a right." Others talk about "sometimes" or if the good is much greater than the harm (i.e., proportionalism). This is an area where Moral Theologians now are discussing issues beyond the generally accepted "Double Effect" tradition.
Gordon: What should the Church do to more effectively reduce sexual abuse of children?
Father Dick: First of all, since the tragic clergy sexual abuse crisis in the Catholic Church in the United States in the 1980s and 1990s, I think the Catholic Church in this country has risen to the occasion admirably, even if a bit slow at first. National charters, across the board education for clergy, seminarians, and all church employees and volunteers, and dutiful prosecutions and penalties are all topnotch. Not to cast aspersions on any other religions, youth organizations, corporations, or U.S. families in general, but the Church in this country is leading the way, ahead of the pack, in terms of dealing with sexual abuse issues, both in advance (training) and in hindsight (prosecution, lawsuits and penalties). Being proactive after our past mistakes is nothing to be extra proud about, but in fact we have learned a valuable lesson and seem, for the most part, to be putting it into practice.
Unfortunately, the Catholic Church worldwide and OTHER organizations in Europe and other parts of the world failed to learn from our U.S. mistakes at the time. At the time others often looked askance at the U.S. as being overly sex obsessed as compared with the rest of the world. These countries and the Catholic Church abroad are now having to relearn some of the same lessons the Church in the U.S. came to terms with decades ago.
Gordon: What are our moral responsibilities to refugees?
Father Dick: While there are certain dioceses, Catholic Charities organizations, and individuals who are admirable spokespersons in behalf of the rights and needs of migrants, there is also a lot of blindness both within and beyond the Catholic Church. And the only moral issue is not whether said immigrants are legal or illegal, documented or undocumented. I am amazed at the amount of xenophobia (anti-foreigner) bias and bigotry there is among the American population, mostly White Americans against all immigrants, but especially against people of color or those from poorer or less well-educated countries.
Thinking back across the centuries, often there has been bias by citizens or landed and settled immigrants against those newly coming or arrived. The Irish, Poles, Italians, Germans, and others of European background experienced this in the 19th and early 20th century. All Asians and people of color (African, Hispanic, Native American) have tended to feel it even more pointedly.
It seems to me that currently, in American politics, the spokespersons of one major party tend to be more bigoted, xenophobic, and racist than those of the other major party. Why this is so and what to do about it seems to be part of the current heated political climate and debate. In general, the American people, including Catholics, have a lot of work to do in regard to our attitudes and actions toward migrants, both legal as well as undocumented. Jesus is pretty clear about welcoming "the widow, the orphan and the stranger." I tend to think that American society, including Catholics, have some remedial learning and ‘catch up’ work to do.
Gordon: Who is your favorite author and book and why is that author and book your favorite?
Father Dick: At this point in my life I would say I have been learning most from the spiritual writing of Richard Rohr, especially his book Falling Upward. I am part of an online men's spirituality group. No, I am not the leader or guru, just a fellow participant. And through sharing a number of books one chapter per week, we are coming to affirm Rohr's insight that that for most of us there are two distinct (and equally valid) halves or parts of life.
The first is the many years we spend learning, working hard, achieving, making our mark and trying to understand it all. At worst those can be "walking on the treadmill" years. At best we are making our mark, achieving our goals and trying to fix as many things as we can. These may well be good and fruitful years. They certainly are what fills most of our obituaries.
BUT Rohr suggests and we guys in my spirituality group tend to agree, that at some point in life we feel the need to "slow down" or "to get off the treadmill." Whatever we have achieved, like assistant vice-president of my company, is as far as I ever will go. What's more, I can't fix everything. And certainly, I will never understand or comprehend it all. Do I give up? Do I get depressed? No, the second half of life is about "letting go," savoring life more than fixing or achieving it. It's what the mystics and contemplatives speak of as "tiptoeing into the presence of the Divine" or "allowing God to tiptoe in and be with me." Take a breath. Breathe deeply. Slow down. Notice a sunrise or sunset. Drink in nature. Stop obsessing. Mellow out a little. BE, rather than DO. There's all kind of language for it, but it is a period in life when "fixing" and "accomplishing" give way to "slowing down," "relaxing," and "savoring the moment." It's not unlike the old song, "Count Your Blessings Instead of Sheep." As a mantra or theme song I often recommend Doris Day's song "Que Sera Sera" or the Beatles "Let it Be" or even "Let It Go" from Frozen.
Gordon: I understand that you are a fan of Dolly Parton. Which of her songs do you like the most?
Father Dick: I have no idea how you heard that I like Dolly Parton. I also have been a life-long devotee of Sherlock Holmes as well as Hopalong Cassidy.
In terms of Ms. Parton's music I have always been partial to a song she wrote for Porter Waggoner when she left his employ, "I Will Always Love You." But more recently she recorded a duet with Whispering Bill Anderson (I'm also his fan) entitled "Someday It Will All Make Sense." While that is a common sentiment of traditional Evangelicals and many old time Catholics, I am beginning to think it's not true or at least it’s insufficient.
Someday, in the hereafter, God doesn't owe me an explanation. And indeed, things might not always make sense in an earthly or logical way. “God's ways are not our ways. “ God's LOVE (i.e., mercy) may be beyond our ability to comprehend. In the end, I do believe that ‘Mercy’ trumps ‘Justice.’ So, I simply might have to accept what is as “the Will of God,” beyond my limiting justice or fairness categories. "God's ways are not my ways." It's above my pay grade! And be satisfied with that.
Finally, I have found that the wisdom and intellect of Sherlock Holmes combined with the humanity and warmth of Dr. Watson tend to make up the perfect person, the two-in-one. Also I believe you can't beat Hopalong Cassidy for being a man of integrity, virtue, humor and compassion. Jimmy Carter is a lot like that too. At the age of 100, he’s always been one of my models or heroes.
Gordon: Thank you for an incisive and exceptional interview.